Artur Beterbiev vs Adam Deines Scorecard by Gold

scorecard by GOLD



Artur Beterbiev

Adam Deines

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Gold's picture

Immediately in the ring with Kadyrov lol. Beterbiev looks good of course but he could never pass legitimate drug testing. He looked super obvious in this fight

Champion97's picture

Why did this fight support him being a drug cheat when Deines lasted so much longer than expected? Do you think he was taking drugs before which he isn't now? If so, that surprises me, I was under the impression the pandemic had made it easier to get away with PEDs.

Gold's picture

His back and build generally. Usually guys who are 35+ don't have serious back acne unless they are loading roids. I don't know what he was or wasn't doing before, he's always looked similar in his build. I just thought it looked very obvious in this fight, but I don't think there is anything to take from his performance. He just went rounds with a long layoff and did what he had to do.

Champion97's picture

I couldn't judge whether a fighter is clean based on the way they look, but I don't know how much more than me you know about signs of steroid use. Do you think he showed more signs in this fight than previous fights? If so, I see why'd you're suspicious, but his performance doesn't back it up, I haven't seen it, but just the fact that Deines went 9-10 rounds suggests Beterbiev doesn't have unnatural strength or power.

Did you prioritize the ESPN card over the DAZN card? If so, I can't blame you, given Okolie's track record with horrible fights, but fought clean against Glowacki, great performance from him, he put himself on the map.

Gold's picture

The fact he has a lot of mass, tone, and a lot of body acne at 36 is a lot of smoke similar to Marquez in the 4th Pacquiao fight, but it may not necessarily be fire. I don't think so, he's always looked big and strong. Watching the fight it definitely looked like he was coasting, he never really stepped on the gas and took chances. He knew the power was there (got a KD clipping Deines in the first) and broke him down. He hadn't been in the ring for a long time so it made sense to take some time.

I watched the ESPN card, I heard Okolie won by KO. I think it was up to question whether the last Glowacki fight showed he was finished or it was a mirage, but I also heard Okolie put in a pretty good performance. We'll see what he does if he fights other top guys.

Champion97's picture

I know coasting and taking your time isn't necessarily the same as carrying an opponent, but I personally don't think carrying an opponent is a good idea, it takes a lot away from the challenge of the fight if the fighter knows he can stop the opponent whenever he wants, and if that's what Beterviev did, I don't think it will have done him harm or good, hopefully he fights at least once more this year.

Glowacki is shot, no doubt, but it was still a great performance from Okolie, I'd watch the highlights if you have time. One thing worth noting is that to look at Okolie's amateur highlights, you'd think he'd had a lot of amateur fights, but the commentary said he had only 22 amateur bouts, not many, which at least partly explains his past fights. It's an underrated division, I'm impressed by all the champions.

Estrada vs Gonzalez was fight of the year so far for me, no doubt, my gauge was that you were far from happy about the result, I share you're disappointment, I thought it was a legitimate robbery, and Gonzalez was robbed of what would have been one of if not the best win of his career, I know Estrada will be ordered to fight Rungvasai again, but I wouldn't mind seeing a third fight if Estrada beats Rungvasai.

Gold's picture

It comes with an inherent risk but I understand why someone would want rounds. I can see the Joe Smith vs. Vlasov winner vs. Beterbiev by the end of the year.

I was really disappointed. I think it won't count against his legacy though like the Barrera vs. Morales fights, even more so because Gonzalez was a clear winner (imo). I hope the WBC makes an exception, the trilogy between Estrada and Gonzalez would be better in my opinion but I think Rungvisai can still beat Estrada. He made a big obvious tactical mistake in their last fight.

Champion97's picture

They're not valuable rounds is what I'm saying. I don't see any roadblocks, that would be a great fight, Beterviev got a great win against Gvozdyk, but we'll see if he can get at least one more fareer defining win or if he'll be a one hit wonder, because I don't think you can build a much of a legacy with one win.

So was I, I don't see a valid argument for Estrada winning 7 rounds. I don't know, I thought he looked terrible, and it was Estrada who made the tactical mistake based on how he finished, and I don't know how much stock to put in Rungvasai's recent form based on his opposition. It's a shame about the result, it was a great fight, and great performance from Gonzalez. The scoring in the UK is poor at the moment, but based on last week, it's even worse in Texas, McCaskill vs Braekhus was some of the worst I've ever seen.

Gold's picture

I don't know enough to say, it wasn't total one-way traffic and Deines was giving some resistance but it was never enough to give him a chance to win the fight. I think if Beterbiev wins the Smith/Vlasov winner fight (I assume it will be Smith) he can get a big fight down the line versus Canelo but he will be old at that point.

Rungvisai fighting out of his usual stance was puzzling and should be easily remedied in a rematch. I don't know about his form either, that's why I would rather see the Gonzalez fight but maybe the WBC put themselves in a bad position. The Texas scoring has been bad for as long as I can remember.

Champion97's picture

I thought he looked bad against Iran Diaz, Rungvasai, and based on the early and mid rounds against Estrada, it was more than the stance, I agree it was a factor, especially seeing how it likely affected how cut off the ring, but he looked very slow, as if his body wouldn't follow his game plan. I don't know why some fighters last so much longer than they should based on their size, age, miles, and in terms of living the life, and others don't last as long as they should, I'd be fairly confident Gonzalez would beat Rungvasai, which would have been unthinkable 3 years ago, and you'd think Gonzalez, a high output fighter, would age faster than a puncher, but Gonzalez looks hardly declined at all, and I've not been impressed by Rungvasai since the first Estrada fight. I know Texas has a bad record, I'm saying it hasn't improved, the rest of the US has it seems, Brits seem to get a fair shake in California.

You'll have heard about Joshua vs Fury, I can't wait, it's the fight we've all wanted to see for many years, I think you'll give Joshua less of a shot than me, but do you think it will be a good fight? Or do you think it will be like Mayweather vs Pacquiao, where there's a big build up, but the fight itself disappoints most people?

Gold's picture

It's one obvious and easy thing he can fix that can make a big difference though. I think Gonzalez would win as well, Rungvisai does seem more aged but you have to remember Estrada can fight to the level of his opposition, he's fought close versus Rungvisai before too. Wilder vs. Fury I was in California, but generally I agree with what you are saying.

I think it will be a good fight for fans, I think how good it is depends on Fury though because he could use a really negative style versus Joshua. I think a big problem for Joshua is that he's going up against someone with more tools who can create more situations where he has an advantage. I think Fury working with Sugar Hill is a good pairing and only creates more versatility for Fury. I think Joshua has a good chance but Fury is a better and more natural boxer overall so I will favor him.

Champion97's picture

I think Estrada would beat Rungvasai in a third fight, but I agree on the stance being an easy tweak to make, it raises the question, why did he switch stance in the first place? And when it wasn't working, why not go back to southpaw earlier than he did? Wilder vs Fury wasn't about location in my opinion, it was about the A-side getting too much favourable scoring.

I still need to think about the fight, but I can't wait, it's a fight that needed to happen, no doubt. I don't think Fury has many more different tools and attributes than Joshua, but the tools he does have are more important, he controls distance so well, has the highest ring IQ in the division, is defensively the best, and those are more important attributes than a lot of Joshua's, which are mainly physical attributes, having said that, we have to question how much Fury has lived the life since the Wilder rematch. I agree on Hill, he hasn't replaced anything, only added new things to Fury's style.

Gold's picture

I don't know, why did Marvin Hagler come out orthodox versus Leonard and lose the first four rounds? Sometimes boxers do things because they think they will work for some idiosyncratic reason, plus when it does pay off no one questions it. That's probably true what you are saying about Wilder vs. Fury I though.

What I mean by more tools and attributes is that we've seen Fury box for 12 rounds, be as negative as possible and win at the top level, and we've seen him push the pace, use his size and break down guys at the top level. He uses his ring IQ and control of distance that you mentioned to have such variety. I don't think Joshua has shown that, he has beat good contender level guys boxing on the back foot, but I don't think the Ruiz rematch really means much though given how bad Ruiz looked. Joshua and Fury are both physically gifted but in different ways, I haven't seen any evidence Fury has been slacking, I think how long he's been out may be a bigger issue. He always looks like he's in mediocre shape so it's hard for me to tell.

Champion97's picture

I'll respond later, but something I've been meaning to discuss with you is deleting old discussions, not discussions that were particularly interesting or that are good to look back on, maybe we could start with Valuav vs Holyfield?

Gold's picture

Sure, I deleted the first one. If you have others just let me know. I'll check the page now and then to keep deleting them

Champion97's picture

Another one is Chisora vs Takam. I appreciate your cooperation, it's me who painted myself in a bad light in those discussions, not you.

Gold's picture

Probably not, I didn't put my best foot forward in some discussions, I was more focused on "winning" rather than generating legitimate discussion. I still stand by what I said about "Sugar" Nikolai Valuev vs. Holyfield though lol but I'll start deleting that one as well.

Champion97's picture

Good question, that makes sense, it's an example of mentality being important in boxing, but I think Crawford deserves credit for his stance switching against Brook, he looked bad for 2 rounds, fighting the rest of the fight in orthodox would have been a bad idea, but him and BoMac knew when to go back to southpaw, that is, if the plan wasn't to go back to southpaw anyway.

Definitely, and I think he's done that with the attributes I mentioned, ring IQ covers a lot of things, but specifically, I think his judgement of distance, reflexes, footwork, are the difference, and what allow him to be so dominant on the back foot or the front foot. I think Joshua proved against Parker and Ruiz that he can box on the back foot, the Ruiz fight would have been closer if Ruiz had trained properly, but Joshua definitely had more rounds in the tank, he's shown more punch variety than Fury (not overall skill variety), in my opinion, his output is far higher, and Joshua's explosiveness, ability to put clean combinations together, are very impressive for a heavyweight. I think it's fair to say Joshua has never done anything as impressive as Fury's performances against Klitschko and Wilder, on paper, or in the fights themselves, because of how dominant he was throughout against Wilder, and how he physiologically beat Klitschko, offset him, and nullified his offence. How he looks means very little, I mean based on his tendencies, because his mental health battle in 2016-18 wasn't the first time period when he wasn't training or living the life, I'm not saying he he necessarily hasn't been living the life overall, but he almost certainly hasn't to the extent Joshua has.

Gold's picture

Yeah, that's what I mean, he has beaten Parker and Ruiz who are good fighters but especially in the Ruiz case was clearly not at the same level as fighting Wlad or Wilder. I think Fury's output is in part low because he chooses to make it low and can choose to make it low, but he upped the output in the second Wilder fight. I agree with what you are saying about Joshua's advantages though.

I deleted another Valuev post, I tried to do one on the Chisora vs. Takam fight but couldn't find one so you may want to look.

Champion97's picture

I agree his output doesn't reflect his gas tank, but Joshua had a bit left in the tank at the end of the Ruiz rematch. I don't think it's harder to out box Wilder on the back foot for a sustained period because he is less versatile than Parker and Ruiz, but I agree that net, it is, because not getting hit clean at some point is a big ask, with how explosive Wilder is, and his timing, recovering like Fury did in the first fight is obviously a big ask, and Wilder can hit harder than the shots that put Fury down, based how poor his follow up was and how tired he was in the late rounds, Fury didn't make the same mistake in the rematch as Ruiz against Joshua, Fury understood Wilder could knock him out cold, was very intelligent.

I don't think Fury can throw as many shots as a 240 lb Joshua, even considering he has more shots in the tank, but he definitely had a high output against Wilder, his pacing was great in that fight as well, threw more shots in each round, but he had control of the pace more of less throughout, full control in rounds 4-7, he will have more to deal with against Joshua. Also, it seems you were right about Ruiz, he's training now, but he was as heavy as 310 after the Joshua loss.

I appreciate that pal. I've deleted all I can, but it's hard to know which ones to delete, because SalTnutZ1 is simultaneously having a discussion with you, we could just leave that one, and I'll leave a full stop in the comment boxes.

Gold's picture

I don't think much can be taken from the Ruiz rematch either way because Ruiz never pushed Joshua physically or mentally, Fury would do that. Agreed with what you are saying otherwise.

I don't think Fury can throw as many shots either but I also don't think he needs to, he can use his skills and ring IQ to force more favorable engagements by slowing the pace down as he did versus Wlad. Joshua will make it more difficult though, possibly more than any opponent Fury has faced before. I don't think he will make the stylistic mistake Wlad made, but if he comes in at a low weight I would be worried he may. I don't think Ruiz will ever make it back to the level he was at in the first Joshua fight, that had to do with the coincidence of the short turnaround from the Dimitrenko fight and he doesn't have the mentality of Fury, Joshua, Wilder. I think Wilder vs. Ruiz would be a good PPV, even though it is stylistically bad or even very bad for Wilder I may pick him anyways for the reasons I previously mentioned, I don't trust Ruiz to perform again at the highest level.

Champion97's picture

I take slightly more from the Ruiz rematch than you do personally, Ruiz wasn't in shape, but he wasn't so out of shape he couldn't push him at all, Joshua still boxed well under the pressure of having to stay out of the pocket, he boxed a disciplined fight, Ruiz couldn't bait a mistake out of him in the late rounds, which takes discipline, Joshua's fundamentals were better than I've seen them.

Respectively, We have different views on Joshua's performances before and after the Klitschko fight, I think it was the making of him, have been impressed by him since apart from the Ruiz loss, you haven't seemed particularly impressed by any of his performances since Klitschko, which I understand, I know we've discussed it before, but one thing I want to add is that Joshua's best opponent before Klitschko, apart from Whyte, was Breazeale, Takam is likely the weakest Joshua fought after Molina, don't you think Takam is a significantly better than Breazeale? What I'm getting at is, if you look at Joshua's opposition before and after Klitschko, he didn't climb the ladder and step up gradually, he jumped up in opposition after Molina, I think overall, the gap between Joshua's opponents before and after Klitschko is bigger than the gap between Klitschko and Joshua's opponents since their fight.

I agree with that, I think Fury would control the tempo, would offset Joshua with his timing and reactions, and make it hard for him to work. Joshua is busy with the jab, that will keep Fury occupied mentally, and if Joshua can land the jab to the body, that could be very important, that shot sapped a lot out of Pulev, had an affect on Povetkin, it could slow Fury's legs down if he could land it, and certainly, varying the jab to head and body would make it hard for Fury to settle down, certainly to the extent he did against Wilder.

Fair enough about Ruiz, he's lost a lot of weight, will be in shape and probably impress against Arreola, but getting in shape for one fight, and keeping it up for years are different things. It's ironic how Joshua got slaughtered for getting civilised and underestimating Ruiz, when he didn't, he rated Ruiz highly, didn't underestimate him any more than he'd have underestimated another top 6-10 heavyweight, but Ruiz definitely got civilised, thought the rematch would be easy, said Joshua wasn't a good boxer, probably believed it, thought Joshua could do nothing to win. I'm 50/50 on whether Ruiz will get back to where he was against Joshua, it's too unpredictable, but he's young, if he pulls his finger out, he could have a few great years ahead of him.

Gold's picture

I would say he was far enough out of shape at 290+. Other than Valuev he was the heaviest defending HW champion in history and Valuev is 7 feet tall. Ruiz looked very poor in isolation to me, so we may have to agree to disagree on that.

I think what you're saying about our perceptions is true, I think Klitschko was his best performance to date. If you are saying his strength of schedule is higher after the Klitschko fight than before, of course I agree, but his progression has not been good to me. I mentioned his leaky defense after the Povetkin fight, it cost him versus Ruiz and I'm not fully convinced by his other performances. I think he has a good chance versus Fury though so I think he is very good, but he hasn't progressed to the level possible after the Klitschko fight.

I think it will be hard for Joshua to jab consistently versus Fury, I'm sure Fury would welcome Joshua jabbing because Fury has good variety on his jab and can jab from orthodox or southpaw, but it can be a tool for Joshua to set up other elements of his arsenal. Joshua was able to jab down on a much smaller Povetkin and a smaller Pulev, he looked good versus Pulev who has a very good jab but it's hard to say much about it from me because of Pulev's age. Fury is taller and longer than Joshua, it will be interesting to see if Joshua can work his jab with that disadvantage.

I think he will impress versus Arreola because Arreola is tailor made for him. I think the criticism comes from the "punch from the gods" statement, makes it seem like it was luck that Ruiz won. I don't think he underestimated Ruiz, it was just a different ask for Joshua to fight Ruiz versus Miller as planned, I don't think he would have come in as heavy if he had planned for Ruiz in the first place.

Champion97's picture

Yeah, agree to disagree.

I think it's a lot higher, and if you agree a 2017 Takam would have beaten a 2016 Breazeale comfortably, shows that. I think winning possibly every round against Takam is impressive, he got a lot of stick for that performance, and in my opinion, beating every one of the opponents he's beaten since Klitschko is more impressive than being as dominant as he was against his 2016 opponents, which is why I've changed my stance, I believe you signed up in 2017, but in 2016, I was a lot more critical of Joshua, thought he got too much credit, I have been less critical since he beat Klitschko. I understand that, it's leaky based on the Povetkin fight, and it takes one shot in heavyweight boxing, but more the majority of the duration of the rounds, his defence was good, I thought he was moving away from Povetkin's shots as they came, he wasn't hurt as bad as we've seen him in other fights. With the benefit of hindsight, I think Joshua's win over Povetkin is more impressive than it seemed, I don't think the Parker win is more less impressive, but that was a solid win. I don't think it was his defence in of itself against Ruiz, I think it was his mentality after he hurt Ruiz, it wasn't his technical defence, but defensively, if you're holding him to Fury's standard, there's no comparison, and in terms of defensive lapses, he still switched off more times in 7 rounds against Povetkin than Fury against Wilder the first time, so I see where you're coming from. He's progressed significantly, but it can definitely be debated as to how much he's improved, we disagreed on how much he's improved, but I agree other fighters have made bigger improvements in 4 years than he has since Klitschko.

I think it will be hard to land the jab consistently against Fury because he'll be iut of range, will shadow box with the jab, but in terms of being busy with it, and keeping Fury mentally busy, I think he can. I don't think he'll fight southpaw against Joshua, I don't think he controls the distance as well, and might be more of a target for Joshua's right uppercut, but he can definitely still box well as a southpaw. I don't think Fury is more varied with the jab than Joshua, but it's more purposeful, and I think he'd out jab Joshua on the outside. I think Joshua can out work Fury with the jab, I don't think he should feint, and get into a thinking man's fight, he doesn't have Fury's reflexes, but he should try to make Fury being reactive favour him, keep him flinching and twitching, that's draining, Joshua doesn't have the technical skills of Usyk, but that's what he did against Bellew.

I definitely agree he's tailor made for him, he stands and fights, is slow, relies on offence, that all favours Ruiz down to the ground, and I don't think Arreola, as hard as he hits, can hurt Ruiz. I don't know, how different should his weight have been for Ruiz to Miller? I think he should have been light for either, for different reasons, but maybe we disagree on that because we disagree on Miller's strength. I think the late replacement definitely favoured Ruiz in my opinion, he'd just fought, went rounds, but didn't take damage, as even though Joshua didn't underestimate him, that was the fight Ruiz wanted style wise, so I agree it was good timing for Ruiz.

I watched Smith vs Eleider, definitely better than it looks on paper, thanks for the recommendation, I might watch Beterbiev vs Deines, and let you know my thoughts on Beterbiev vs Smith.

Gold's picture

As you know it isn't necessarily the same skill to beat B level guys like Takam consistently and to beat top level guys from that generation of boxers. Joshua will get credit for that in his legacy, if he beats Fury I'm sure he will be a HOF (and Fury will be if he beats Joshua). I think at the time saying Povetkin is tailor made for Joshua is still right, Povetkin's level was likely higher than many considered at the time but stylistically it was always going to be a big ask for Povetkin because of the size difference, we saw the Wlad fight and how much difficulty he had with Wlad's size as well. I think Joshua has a high floor even with the Ruiz fight, I don't know what his ceiling is though.

I think the Wlad fight showed how well Fury can control the distance, yeah Wlad is more safety first than Joshua but Wlad has a great jab, Fury shut him down as we know. I think it is interesting strategically because it will be harder for Joshua to outwork Fury with the jab at a higher weight, but he may be more effective at a higher weight for the reason you mentioned, he shouldn't try to box Fury for the whole fight. As I've mentioned before though, I think Joshua will come in with the right game plan as a boxer puncher, using his skills to set up his power and combinations.

I think he tried to bulk up to deal with Miller's size and strength, with what Joshua showed in the Ruiz rematch he could exploit the foot speed, foot work, and range to beat Ruiz clearly. I think if he would have used that strategy in the first fight he still would have won clearly, it would have been more like Joshua vs. Parker though. That could also be a good weight for him, he was 5 and a half pounds lighter versus Parker than versus Ruiz in their first fight.

I saw your comments about Smith vs. Vlasov, do you think an aspect that favors Beterbiev is that Smith seems to need more space to set up his shots and Beterbiev has good pressure and generates his power with his strength? With that, Beterbiev could potentially get inside of Smith's power, but I may be wrong about that, I would have to rewatch more Smith fights. Beterbiev vs. Deines wasn't much of a watch but maybe you want to see how Beterbiev looked after his layoff. As I said before, Beterbiev basically just went rounds on him.

Champion97's picture

Yes, but it's in how terms of how well he's beaten them, that we disagree slightly, his strength of schedule has been consistent as you said. I don't think any puncher is tailor made for Joshua, I think Pulev had a better style for Joshua than Povetkin because he's reliant on the jab, doesn't have the likely variable of changing the fight with one shot, fighters who are more reliant on defence, like Pulev, Klitschko, were better for Joshua in my opinion, because he's offensively good, and is versatile, doesn't get smothered, has a devastating right uppercut, but a solid jab, doesn't get out boxed on the outside, inexperience was the reason Klitschko seemed to be a step ahead of him for parts of that fight, but because of Joshua's chin, relatively slow recovery, and tenancy to leave that crucial opening now and then, a brilliant offensive fighter like Povetkin has more to exploit in my opinion. I don't think this applies to the Fury fight much because Fury is exceptionally good, is the only fighter I think can out box Joshua on the outside for enough of the fight to win, but I was very impressed by him against Povetkin, logically a better Povetkin than we saw against Hunter and Whyte, and in my opinion, for those reasons, not necessarily a good style for Joshua, not saying necessarily a bad style overall either, because I see your argument, but I disagree because I think more favoured Povetkin stylistically.

Definitely, he nullified Klitschko's jab, out timed Klitschko, Klitschko couldn't deal with Fury's reflexes or movement. Fury showed another dimension in the Wilder rematch, I'd seen him box on the outside, on the back foot, and I'd seen him fight on the inside, but even though he landed short shots in close at times, he maintained the distance when he backed Wilder up, which is another skill, and is why he threw the long left hook disguised as a jab. I think the busier he is, the better, and the best shot for him to throw is the jab to the body, he shouldn't worry too much about accuracy in the early rounds, but what he can't afford is let Fury have comfortable rounds, let him keep it at a low tempo, he has to keep Fury occupied. I agree on that, he will set up his combinations, use his speed and utilise being the more explosive fighter.

Very possible, Miller is a lot stronger than Ruiz even without his offensive attributes. I agree weight was important, but it's been corroborated that Joshua was concussed before the fight, which would explain why he went down so easily in round 7, even after he'd seemed to recover.

Did you think I implied that? Because I was impressed by Smith's ability to shorten the right hand against Eleider, it was only his pacing that I wasn't impressed by, but Beterviev would definitely capitalize on the intervals as Smith relents. Thanks for the assessment, I think I'll watch at least some of it. Based on Smith's fight against Alvarez, and the knowledge it took Beterbiev so long to stop Deines, I think the argument that Smith beats Beterbiev is stronger than I thought, I hope the fight happens this year, do you think it will? Provided Smith beats Vlasov?

Gold's picture

I think that's just the floor versus ceiling argument I was talking about, I know his floor is good but what's his ceiling? The two are correlated but aren't necessarily linked causally. I think for a puncher Povetkin is better for Joshua than most because Joshua could use his size. I think Pulev was an easy fight for him but not Wlad, because even though Wlad is defensive he has great power. Part of the problem for Povetkin is he lacks a good jab, he can't try to jab his way in versus taller guys with a big jab so eventually he gets caught leaping in.

I agree, Joshua should be busy without risking draining the tank and shouldn't worry a lot about the accuracy. I also agree that he shouldn't let Fury set the pace. If he does that, in my opinion he's basically banking on getting a KO, because I don't think he can point Fury.

Could you give me information about the concussion story? I thought that was just a rumor spread at the time and then afterwards as a defense of Joshua.

No, that's why I was curious. I was under the impression Smith needed space to generate his power, which is why I asked if Beterbiev should try to keep the pressure on to get inside of his power. So I will have to watch some of Smith again. I don't think Vlasov is an easy out for Smith, he's a guy who does a lot at a good to decent level but nothing at a great level, so if Smith doesn't show up he could lose. I think Beterbiev vs. Smith would happen if Smith wins, it's a relatively inexpensive fight and would be a headliner.

Champion97's picture

I'll respond properly later when I have more time, but first, I don't want to leave you hanging on the concussion. In his dressing room before the fight, he was putting his head in a bucket of ice, wondering why he felt so unwell, his demeanor supports that there was a problem, Hearn was scared Joshua Sr was about to assault him, a promoter's nightmare must be a fighter pulling out at the last minute, Hearn wouldn't have wanted him to pull out, a lot of this makes perfect sense, but hasn't been corroborated, granted, but Joshua has confirmed he had a health issue before the fight, surgery after it, the bucket of ice is something he himself mentioned, and he was definitely concussed in the fight. What it comes down to is whether you believe the left hook from Ruiz in round 3 started the concussion or worsened a concussion that was already there. I hope you don't think I'm making excuses for Joshua, him being concussed before the fight is what I think based on the facts and what I observed before he got caught.

Gold's picture

What I mean is where do those rumors come from? What's the source of that info? A lot of it seems like a convenient story, I think it was that he took the shot in the 3rd. I don't think you are making excuses for him, I'm just asking where the info is from

Champion97's picture

Joshua himself, he isn't someone who can't take a loss, he said after the Klitschko fight he expected to lose sooner or later, I don't see why he'd lie now, I believe it, I thought the signs were there, no reaction to his name being announced, mouthpiece hanging out of his head, no resistance after he seemed to get his legs back. We'll never know for sure, it's simply whether you believe Joshua, but I do, and I think the shot in the 3rd worsened the concussion, it won't explain the signs I mentioned, and Joshua Sr's anger at Hearn.

Gold's picture

Haha, well he said it was a punch from the gods so I don't know about that. It's not that I don't believe him because I think he specifically is a liar, but because they are in a business where it can be good to be deluded. I think the pre-fight stuff can as easily be explained by personal issues or the change of pace at MSG in the US, but we will never know for sure.

Champion97's picture

Let's accept the uncertainty on it, and leave it where it is, like with Froch vs Groves, we'll never know if Froch would have got a decisive finish if the referee hadn't stopped it, but Froch put an end to the argument in the rematch, Joshua did the same.

Champion97's picture

I think we've seen his ceiling in terms of his chin and recovery, and that's why Fury is more durable, it's his natural recovery, he isn't the better athlete, and can be hurt when he takes a big shot, Fury, but he recovers extremely quickly, Joshua takes a good 2 rounds to recover when he's hurt based on all the professional fights we've seen him hurt in, so for recovery rate, there's no comparison between him and Fury. I think Whyte hurt Joshua a lot worse than Povetkin did, but Povetkin did a far better job of following it up before Joshua recovered. I think Joshua's ceiling is a narrowed gap between him and where Fury is at now, I think he can make fewer and fewer mistakes when he boxes good fighters, I don't see a reason why he wouldn't continue to improve in that regard, but he'll never have Fury's reflexes and awareness. I don't remember Joshua using his size much against Povetkin, I think he worked when Povetkin wasn't throwing, was prepared for Povetkin to get off first, and he pulled back when he did. True about Wlad's power, but a 2017 Wlad is better than a 2020 Pulev, and Joshua has improved, we don't agree on how much he's improved, but I don't think Klitschko's style was wrong for him because he wasn't a great offensive fighter. Good point, and even before he's caught, it's easier to pull back from a lead hook or over hand than a right hand set up by a jab or when the opponent has jabbed his way in, he's fallen short more often as he's got older and his legs have got slower, and because of his age, he needs more time between attacks, which gives the opponent a chance to work.

I don't think Smith needs space to generate his power, he can fight at mid range, but he can also get short shots off on the inside, and as he jabbed his way in against Eleider, Eleider leaned forward at angle to the left of Smith as the right hand came, Smith would have over reached if he needed significant space to get his shots off, but he shortened the right hand. I don't think Beterviev should try to get inside his power for sustained period, I'd need to think about it, but he should try to make Smith feel the power early, put him on the back foot, he has the strength and power to do that, boxing on the outside isn't his style, but in a clean fight at close range, Smith is very dangerous. I'd need to think and see more of both before I say any more than that.

Gold's picture

I don't mean that Joshua used his size as in he did what Wlad did to Povetkin, but with Joshua's size versus someone of Povetkin's size there's a natural advantage where he can use his height and range just boxing normally even if he isn't putting his weight on Povetkin, draining him that way. I don't think Wlad was necessarily bad for him but he wasn't good stylistically either. We saw Povetkin falling in on his shots more versus Whyte than in the past as an example.

What do you think of Beterbiev vs. Smith now? I don't really think it changes my prediction honestly, there is a massive difference between the styles of Beterbiev and Vlasov.

Champion97's picture

I see what you mean, but in the early rounds of that fight, Joshua was on the back foot, using his jab, so he could almost as easily have been tall and thin, I say almost because his size gives his jab more authority against a smaller Povetkin, but I just didn't see his strength being one of the main differences, I thought his age advantage was a bigger factor, his fundamentals were important, but that shot in round 7, that hurt Povetkin, was timed perfectly. I suppose on the basis that Klitschko was a pateint fighter who waited for the right hand when the opening was there, and Joshua's defence, although good for most of the round, is often leaky, Klitschko's style wasn't good for Joshua, he hit hard as well, you might be right there.

I still want to see Beterviev vs Deines, but after that, I have to give him less of a chance, not much less, because I think it was an off night to some degree, but he might have been made to look better than he is against Alvarez. There is a big difference, but I thought Vlasov backing Smith up was important in the fight, Beterviev could do that, Smith isn't comfortable on the back foot, and aside from which style is worse for him, it is never ideal for a fighter to go from one tough fight to another when the styles are so different, which is a concern for Parker against Chisora, given how different he is to Fa style wise.

Gold's picture

I think what you are saying about Beterbiev backing him up could be right, I'm not sure Beterbiev's style will be as tricky for Smith to time but it's an interesting comparison because Beterbiev is better technically and has good variety but he isn't unorthodox like Vlasov. Do you think Parker is at risk of losing versus Chisora? Did you hear all of the out of the ring stuff with Parker? That and having a new trainer could hurt his performance as well. I think Chisora is a decent matchup for Parker especially at this point in Chisora's career but given the circumstances with Parker it wouldn't shock me if he put in a flat performance.

What did you think of the Showtime schedule that was released? I'm interested in most of the fights. It will be interesting to see how Nery does now that he's away from the Reynoso's, I don't think their style was good for him in his last performance. Many of the other fights are interesting but the most interesting to me is Jermell Charlo vs. Castano, I think Castano has a real chance in that fight. I don't know if I'd pick him as the favorite but he has good experience now, good amateur background, great output and punches in combination. He'll make it hard for Jermell to win rounds.

Champion97's picture

I think it's a 50/50 fight, I'm rooting for Parker, but although Andy Lee might be potentially a good trainer, we know McGirt is a great trainer. Do you mean the accusations of being involved in drugs importation? I read that, I don't think that will be a factor provided the stress of being under investigation doesn't affect his training or mentality in the ring. The timing benefits Chisora down to the ground, 2 months is not long enough between big fights, I know you're not a believer in 2 fights a year being necessary, you might be ring, but 2 months is not long enough, the Fa fight was quite tough for Parker physically, but it's more the preparation for a different style, and it's not only his first fight with a new trainer, who he hired not because he was recommend by Fury, but he hasn't been training with him 2 months. 6 months is the perfect time for Chisora in my opinion, it's enough time for him to rest between camps, and have a good, long camp. If Chisora's miles have caught up to him, which is very possible, I think Parker stops him, but if not, I think it will be a close decision either way.

Great overall, there were a few great fights, some disappointing fights, but Charlo vs Castano is a great fight, I agree that's the best fight, Nery vs Figueroa is a good one, and Barrios vs Davis is a very interesting fight, I think Barrios has a good shot to win that, and there are a few others. I'm surprised Charlo couldn't get a better fight than Montiel, he seems to be a puncher, but a one trick pony.

Gold's picture

Apologies I haven't replied in a while, I've been very busy between work and school obligations.

I think Andy Lee will be a good trainer as well but as you said McGirt is more of a known quantity. We know McGirt can do a good job of getting guys to fight to their advantages. Yeah, I mean the drug ring scandal. I don't think it's that he's under investigation but that he lost an appeal that would have kept his name private. That's a good point about the Fa fight for Parker, especially with the changing circumstances you mentioned. I'll be watching the fight, I think it's the best of the weekend but I think Ruiz vs. Arreola could be good from an entertainment perspective.

How much chance do you give Barrios? I don't think I scored Barrios vs. Akhmedov but I remember thinking Akhmedov was hard done by to not get a draw. Obviously there is a huge size difference between them, I think it isn't a bad fight but if they are willing to make that fight I think they are confident in Tank's chances. I saw that about Jermall, it's a bad fight honestly. They need to step up to the plate and make Charlo vs. Andrade, Bob Arum has made a lot of really dumb decisions lately but if they have a similar offer to what Ramirez did to fight Hooker on DAZN they should take it. I would be confident Jermall could beat Andrade and it would be a good win for him.

Will you be watching Mthalane vs. Edwards tomorrow? I'm going to switch to Mthalane by UD if that's alright, I wouldn't be surprised at all if Edwards won given how old Mthalane is but I think Mthalane does a lot at a good level, has good power, and and his experience may be too much.

Champion97's picture

No need to apologise bro, I've been busier recently myself, I'm behind on my prediction analyses.

I personally can't wait for the fight, I've written a game plan break down and a prediction break down, I think Parker's style is wrong for Chisora on reflection, the reason is that Chisora has to cut distance to be effective, Parker has a solid jab, and Parker is better on the back foot in my opinion, I think Ruiz was in shape against Parker, is considerably better than Fa or Hughie, his fight against Parker wasn't much closer than the other 2, Parker wasn't doing damage against Joshua when Joshua was backing up, he struggled with being out jabbed, the right hands he landed in rounds 5 and 6 were off the back foot, he was working well off the back foot against Whyte until the head clash fall. I think Chisora will make himself small on the inside, won't smother his own work, will smother Parker's right hand and left hook, but the I think Parker can land the right uppercut, I think that's the key for him.

I think Ruiz will stop Arreola early, Arreola has a lot of miles, is 40, Ruiz is a phenomenal offensive fighter, I think this is just to put Ruiz back on the map, hopefully PBC can put him in a good fight this year, the Wilder fight makes sense, so does Ortiz.

About 35%. That was a good fight, I think Akhmedov fought a great fight, but Barrios showed adaptability with the late knock down, it was an easy fight to score overall, but I thought there were a couple of close rounds, and it was a 2 point swing either way. I'm sure they are, Tank is predominantly a come forward fighter, but he has a lot of all round boxing skill, isn't reliant on size or even power in terms of potential, but the Akhmedov fight was a great learning fight for Barrios, the only 12, even 10 round fight Tank has had at 135 was Gamboa, who is small, he is coming from 130, but also, we know he was heavy before he started training for Santa Cruz, he looked heavy in a video in January, his lack of discipline could cost him.

Charlo vs Andrade would be a great fight, but I think it's the same problem as Spence vs Crawford, they wouldn't come to an agreement, Golovkin vs Andrade is a great fight. It will be interesting to see how Breland does with Charlo.

I won't, it's on BT Sport, and as we discussed, it's very unreasonable, but I'll try to get live updates, I'll look forward to watching the repeats of those fights, and I'm looking forward to the 2 main cards on Saturday. I'll alter that to Mthalane UD.

Gold's picture

Good weekend of fights, I have to say that Parker looked relatively poor to me, I don't know how much of it was the factors we had discussed but again it looked like he couldn't really change gears when he had the opportunity which is something I've seen in him before. It was a good fight by Chisora, he exceeded my expectations.

What did you think of Ruiz? I think he has some adjustments to do still and I think he could slim down even further, he did look like he was out of gas even in some of the early rounds. I think I will favor Wilder if they make that fight but it seems like Ortiz may be targeted. I think the length of Wilder would end up making the key difference, I think he will improve in his next fight with Reynoso but if Wilder hits Ruiz with one of the shots Arreola hit Ruiz with he's finished.

The one thing that makes me think Barrios has a decent chance is in retrospect how well Santa Cruz did boxing Tank early on. Santa Cruz made a really dumb mistake tripling up and letting Tank set up the huge shot because of it. I will have to look into the fight more, it's a good point that Tank is often in bad condition, and he likely will have to go rounds with Barrios who did better late in the fight versus Akhmedov. Tank should be in a lot better position than he is given his talent but like Broner he wants to imitate Floyd without doing the work Floyd did. Floyd fighting Logan Paul in his 40s will look better physically than Tank does right now in his prime.

Is it true Breland is with Charlo? I think that could be a good pairing, at least stylistically. I think I saw something saying he was working with Charlo and then something saying he wasn't.

I'm sure you saw about Verdejo, truly a horrific crime. He may face the death penalty in the US and it wouldn't surprise me if he did if the affidavit is what actually happened.

Champion97's picture

No doubt man, and I'm looking forward to Canelo vs Saunders, but apart from Joshua vs Fury, Ramirez vs Taylor might the upcoming fight in any month that I'm most looking forward to, his about you?

I don't agree because of the circumstances we discussed, 2 months is not long enough between fights, is it? I think that's one of the reasons fighters used to lose more often than now, not only because they fought so much more often, but because a problem with using fights as training is that you don't have to time to prepare for a different style. Chisora exceeded my expectations slightly, but he couldn't sustain the pace he set, Parker took over the fight in rounds 6-9, the last 3 rounds were close overall, it was a close fight, but Parker was unfortunate in round 1. I thought he did a better job of changing gears overaal because he was able to out fight Chisora in the pocket as well as be patient and use the ring, picked the tempo up, but that's mostly based on rounds 5 onwards, I agree in terms of the early rounds, and he didn't dictate the pace enough, even if he was prepared for the tempo Chisora would set, he waited for Chisora to force the fight in the pocket, he used his strength, turned Chisora on the ropes, which was smart, but I'd have liked to have seen him back Chisora up and claim centre ring more often.

I personally, find it very annoying that so many people are insisting it was a robbery when it obviously wasn't, if it had been Chisora who had been knocked over off balance, there would be an outcry, it could have gone either way, but it was obviously not a robbery, I hope there's an immediate rematch, and if there is one, I'm a lot more confident Parker wins, Chisora took more damage, and wouldn't have the timing advantage he had this time.

I think he lost muscle after the Joshua fight, I agree he looked tired, I saw technical improvement with the feet, he can do a lot better if he continues to live the life, but when he got hit, he struggled to hold the shot in his legs, conditioning is a part of punch resistance and durability that gets overlooked, Ruiz looked like he struggled to keep control of his center of gravity. I'd have to rethink the fight, but if they fought next, I'd favour Wilder for the reasons you mentioned. I think Arreola is highly suspicious, he is 40, seems suspiciously resilent, has had 2 wins wiped off for failed tests, one of them a PED, threw a heavyweight record number of shots against Kownacki, I don't disagree on Ruiz, but it's worth noting if we're assessing his performance.

I don't think Tank was expecting Santa Cruz to start as fast as he did, but the body shots were good from Tank, that would have been important if the fight had gone late. When you say tripling up, do you mean with the same shot? If so, I agree, I can't remember off the top of my head, but that sounds vaguely familiar. I don't know about that, Floyd doesn't need to train for that clown show, but Pacquiao will be in better shape in his 40s in his next fight than Tank in his 20s.

Yes it is. It will be interesting to see Breland tested as a trainer, hd couldn't bring the best out of Wilder, but we know Wilder mostly ignored his advice.

Yes, sickening, I see no reason to doubt he's guilty, all the evidence seems heavily against him, all we can do is pray for the family of the young woman who lost her life.

Gold's picture

Ramirez vs. Taylor will be good, of course it is a good stylistic matchup and we should see a good amount of action. I think Joshua vs. Fury is my clear #1, it's a big and intriguing historical fight. I heard 60k tickets have been sold for Canelo vs. Saunders, getting close to fully sold out. It will be interesting to see a full stadium fight again, first one back in boxing really.

I think given the context it was too short of a turn around, but not necessarily in general. What you are saying about guys in the past who lost more to opponents below their level because they didn't have enough time to recover and prepare is seemingly true. Depending how far you go back only limited or no tape existed (plus same day weigh ins, no modern nutrition/strength and conditioning, etc) so it was just totally different in preparation. It doesn't surprise me Chisora gassed either, he's had issues in the past with that and as he ages with his style it won't get any better. I think Parker's inability to step on the gas made Chisora look better in that regard. I think it would have been good, as you said, for Parker to dictate the pace from center ring more, it fits Parker's skills more and wastes Chisora's energy.

I agree, it definitely wasn't a robbery, the fight was close. I'm not super interested in the rematch because Parker will likely win clearly, but I wouldn't be mad if the fight happened.

That's a good point about conditioning and durability. I don't think Arreola was doing a lot that was really technical, he was just there to be hit. Arreola is a suspicious fighter for the reasons you mentioned. What do you think of Arreola's size as a potential route for Ruiz? Arreola is taller than Ruiz but they have similar builds and Arreola is a lot lighter than Ruiz.

Watch the finishing sequence, I believe Santa Cruz throws the straight left three times in a row in sequence and on the last one Tank times him and KOs him. I forgot Floyd didn't cut weight for Tenshin and I don't think he will for Paul either but he did for McGregor in his 40s and looked as good as ever really. I heard Pacquiao's next fight will be his last, but he will show up in great shape as you said.

It's a shame because if you've seen Breland fight, you can see how it could have been a natural pairing.

Champion97's picture

You might find my prediction analysis for Ramirez vs Taylor interesting, I've been working on it for many weeks, but I've saved it my notes so users don't start a discussion until it's finished. Definitely a historic fight, possibly the biggest fight in British boxing history, it has to happen. There's been something missing without crowds, I'm looking forward to seeing that atmosphere come back. What do you make of the ring size controversy? I think Saunders and his team have been stupid to leave it so late to raise objections, Canelo is angry, but if they are trying to get under his skin strategically, that's bad for them in my opinion, Saunders is distracting himself from the fight if that's what he's doing. I think the difference between the rings they're talking about would be Saunders delaying Canelo's ring cutting by a round or two, ring size can be crucial in a 50/50 fight, but it isn't important for the outcome of this fight in my opinion.

When you say in general, you mean in general 12 round fights? Which are either world title fights or something along the lines of an eliminator? If so, 8 weeks is a short camp in this day and age, so it's a very short time gap between fights, and although I understand 2 slots a year is often contractual, fighters get suspended for a reason, I definitely think it depends the damage a fighter takes, you made a good point you made before Kovalev fought Canelo was Whittaker's fight against De La Hoya 11 weeks after he was down against Hurtado, but boxing is surely safer with fewer fights. One thing I've noticed hasn't changed much is how many title defences a champion makes, champions often seemed to have 2 title defences a year in the 60s and 70s, but they had a few non-title bouts as well, likely didn't take them that seriously, understandable, it will have kept them in shape, they'll have been paid, and a loss wouldn't cost them the belt, but obviously it put additional miles on them. I haven't formed an opinion on this specific subject based on footage even in the Ali era, but of course it's harder to generally compare boxing 100 years ago to now. Worse preparation, not just different, let's be honest, we know same day weigh ins were dangerous because of the thinning of the fluid around the brain, and better nutrition makes a fighter less vulnerable, I know sparring and hard camps can take a toll, but we also know that it takes a more of a toll on fighters who don't live the life and start camp heavy.

Chisora tries to be a momentum fighter, he is very effective in the early rounds as we saw against Usyk, Parker, and Whyte the first time, but he takes more out of himself, because he misses, he might be guilty of trying to be a bigger puncher than he is, and can't keep the opponent in front him, he cuts off the ring well, but he loads up, is inconsistent with his aggression, and he's too ponderous to keep the opponent on the ropes. I definitely agree, Chisora is slowly declining because of his age, but he has a lot of miles, he took a fair bit of damage against Parker, he's likely to get old overnight before he's 40. I could see him improving in that regard when he had more time training with Lee, and if he could make those adjustments in a rematch, I don't think it's a close fight, a rematch favour Parker heavily based on the timing alone, but I think Chisora deserves the rematch, and there's something to gain for Parker as well, it's lower risk than the first fight, and edging Chisora, but he can raise his stock by leaving no doubt.

I agree, I'm sure Goosen had a game plan, but I don't think Arreola did anything apart from survive and wait for a mistake after 3 rounds, I think he felt the power of Ruiz in round 3, knew the pocket was dangerous. His size is also suspicious in my opinion, I don't think Ruiz will ever get down to Arreola's size because he would need to devote his training specifically to weight loss, it would take a while, it's possible, I think Ruiz should aim to be below 250 for his next fight, and in a couple of years, when he could potentially peak, he should be below 240, if he does that, I think he can maximize his potential from here on out.

Just saw it, when did you watch it? Because that isn't what it looked like to me, I saw Santa Cruz throw a jab, right hand off the ropes, which Tank reacted to, he let the jab hit his guard, but focused on the right hand, saw the opening, so Santa Cruz lunging with that same shot again was perfect for Tank, and that's when he timed the left uppercut, the angle and accuracy on the shot was perfect, it was a great shot, but Santa Cruz should have moved around to his left and turned Davis on the ropes, or jabbed off the ropes at long range and made Davis walk into it, but lunging with the lead right hand off the ropes was a mistake, no doubt, and if you watch the 1 minute highlight video, you see he did the same thing earlier in the round, Davis leaned back, he might have even seen the opening for the left uppercut at that point.

Mayweather wasn't in as good shape as ever against McGregor, he had no reason to be, but he wasn't as unprepared as for Tenshin, I see your point though, discipline might be the difference between Pacquiao and Davis.

I haven't seen Breland fight, I know a fair bit about him, but I'll watch him fight when I get the chance.

Gold's picture

I'll be interested to read your prediction when you post it. It really is a shame that fights get sold off to places like Saudi Arabia, I know it's prizefighting but the UK fans always show out for their guys and support them like few others, so that's a real shame. I think the ring size controversy is manufactured by the Saunders camp, it's not unexpected with him, he really is an ignorant guy. Apparently it was a 20 foot ring, totally normal and legal within the unified rules. If it was a small legal ring like 16 feet maybe they could complain some about it being unfair but as you said, they should have put that in the contract. I saw someone, I think Hurd, saying he fought on the Canelo vs. Trout undercard and it had a soft canvas that made it hard to move. Similar to the Wlad vs. Fury ring controversy, but that is typical A-side behavior. I don't think making Canelo angry is going to work either, he's calculated, not someone who is going to go over the top and make unforced errors.

I mean that in the context of Parker having the Fa fight which wasn't easy, if someone takes a tune-up and then goes to a bigger fight they may want to get in the ring and then do a shorter camp, but that doesn't well for big weight cutters. It is safer with less fights surely, but it's a balance. I don't think the same day weigh ins weren't necessarily as dangerous back in the day but I'm not fully educated on the topic. I believe that Carlos Monzon was one of the first if not the first to really implement weight cutting and that was in the 1970s rather than before that. One interesting comparison is the gloves, they had less padding so theoretically there were more KOs and less subconcussive punches which we know does significant brain damage.

I think for Chisora it's just that he is what he is, he's been a good contender level fighter for a long time which is impressive but he's not a top level guy because on one hand it seems he needs to load up and push the pace early on to be effective, but he gasses doing that and it leaves him doing too little. The problem with Parker is that a significant amount of it seems to be mental, I'm not sure how much Lee can help with that even though I think Lee will make a good trainer. What do you think about Whyte vs. Parker II? Both of them are kind of in a no mans land at the moment, I think it may make sense for them unless they are hoping for further belt fracturing with the Joshua vs. Fury series.

I think it may be suspicious in that fight specifically but I just don't see a logical argument for Ruiz needing to be so heavy, it would surely improve his footwork just by doing that. I think your idea may make more realistic sense, we'll see where he goes with Reynoso from here.

I misremembered it, he did try to throw the straight right a third time in that short sequence when Tank stepped in and countered Santa Cruz, as you said he was lunging and it was a mistake a fighter of his level usually doesn't make.

He looked great, very rarely do you see athletes in their 40s look like that, to me it is just a general testimony to his work ethic.

I saw your discussion on the Canelo vs. Saunders fight page, I agree with what you are saying fully, I can't see the other guy's argument at all. It's just that Saunders is generally below the level of Canelo in almost every area as you mentioned, I can't understand believing there is a debate between the raw talent of Canelo and Saunders. They just need to remember that what Saunders did versus Lemieux was the optimal fighter for him and as Saunders said himself it was in a huge ring. Saunders has a slim area he needs to exploit at his best level ever. He needs to fight at a 10/10 and have Canelo fight below his usual level. We'll see how they look at the weigh in but I believe I saw a picture of BJS training and he looked suspiciously different than some of his last fights but Canelo's build is ridiculous too. I'm actually more worried about the scorecards in this fight than Canelo's other recent fights strictly because it's in Texas, we saw the scorecards for Chocolatito vs. Estrada and many other fights recent and historic. As you said Canelo vs. Charlo would be great, although it would be in Texas it would be a legitimately huge and interesting fight, they could pack Cowboy Stadium to the rafters for that one.

Champion97's picture

I agree on that, a lot of UK fans will travel anywhere, but it isn't the same as at Wembley or even Manchester arena. It was his dad, Tom, who said the fight was off, I think he has doubts. I'd heard it was 18 foot, and they wanted a 22 foot ring, it was different with Fury against Klitschko because the ring surface specifically isn't always addressed, but the ring size should be 100% dealt with before the fight is announced, Tom Saunders talking about negotiations falling apart over the ring size, in the middle of fight week, was a joke. That's interesting, I hadn't heard that, but it doesn't surprise me, Canelo will have had the same soft canvas to move on, but if Trout wasn't ready for it, that's his disadvantage, the scoring was classic Texas, Trout didn't get a fair shake, it was a close fight, great learning fight for Canelo.

I suppose weight bullying is done more often now, and fighters are generally more dehydrated, but I think it's still safer with 24-36 hours to rehydrate. Definitely, and everything is more thorough now with the hand wrapping process, referees assessing fighters themselves as well as just the amount of damaged they've seen.

His pacing is definitely poor, his experience is a big factor in fights, but not in that regard, he isn't reliant on being fresh, can fight tired, make it harder for the opponent to exploit his fatuige, works in clinches, knows when to hold, but he still can't physically throw as many shots as the fight goes on either, he's feet are even slower and he can't hit as hard, I noticed a big dip in his power against Parker and Usyk, which took a lot away from his momentum, Chisora's power seemed like a shock to the system for Usyk in the first 2 rounds, hus guard was solid, wasn't hurt, but Chisora knocked him across the ring, and in the late rounds, even though there was still a big strength difference in terms of Chisora coming forward, Chisora couldn't physically move Usyk when he hit him. Parker definitely has heart, but he lacks the killer instinct as we've spoken about before, I agree some of his issues are mental, but I think there's room for technical improvement, it will be interesting to see how much Parker can improve with more time training with Lee, I heard an interview with Parker and Lee, and Lee seemed to think Parker did a few things wrong, it didn't sound like a trainer not being able to motivate a fighter, but more like a few specific technical things, which isn't surprising given how recently Lee was hired.

I'd be shocked, I think Whyte is in a better position than Parker, but Whyte has no plan on fighting another Parker or Rivas this year, he wants Trevor Bryan or Chris Arreola, which I think is pointless given how easy the Povetkin rematch was. I don't often accuse fighters of ducking, but he made it clear he wouldn't fight Usyk or Hunter, I don't see why he'd fight Parker, especially given he got the technical win, and hung on by the skin of his teeth. If the fight happened, that could be a 50/50 fight.

I don't either, I think the reason he's still over 250 is because he was so heavy after the Joshua rematch, I read recently he was 310. Ruiz definitely struggles to lose weight, I think the important thing for him is to keep losing weight, but he is used to carrying extra weight, so it doesn't matter if it's a gradual process, but he should be able to get down to 250 for his next fight, he shouldn't try specifically to lose weight, but if he's generally training right, weight loss comes with it. Definitely his foot speed, slow feet are a big problem for him, staying up from a big shot would take less out of his legs, he could throw more shots as well. I don't see him slacking off with the Reynosos,

I think Pacquiao is a great example of what you're saying, and I'm sure you'll agree on that.

He admitted bias, which explains a lot, as you know British boxing culture is full of support from loyal fans, but definite bias. Definitely, he needs Canelo to have a problem, there's some uncertainty, we've haven't seen his limit when he's at his best, but we'd know if there was a chance he was capable of beating an on form Canelo, the Smith and Murray fights tell us a lot, the Murray fight wasn't much more one sided, Saunders seemed tired between rounds 7 and 8, he beat Coceres similarly to how Canelo beat Kovalev as well, no doubt there's a good argument the gap isn't as big as that comparison makes it seem, because Saunders is better in big fights, but to think he can go from that to beating Canelo because he schooled Lemieux, edged Eubank and Lee, is unrealistic. I think Ryder would edge Saunders now, and would have been more deserving of the fight.

I don't see a reason to think either are clean or are taking a lot, I think both are taking what they can get away with, like a lot of fighters, they've both failed one test. Good point, Texas judging is dodgy as it always has been, I still think Estrada got a robbery. Very true, I'd love to see that fight, what an event at the cowboys' stadium, but I don't know how realistic it is.

Gold's picture

18 feet is still legal, I don't know the details of how they can get a 22 feet ring under the ABC rules Texas operates under, I believe they allow 16 to 20 feet but surely there is some way around it because it must have been done at some point. Yeah, I was just giving the Fury point as an example generally. The Canelo vs. Trout fight was even worse considering the open scoring which should never be done.

I think Whyte is in a better position as well but if Whyte is talking about fighting Bryan or Arreola where is his career going really? I don't mean to rehash it but I'm really glad Whyte lost when he did, he's a good contender but the conversation around him from some people was so unreasonable. I want to see him fight the best available like anyone else, I guess he is waiting it out but he could end up being like a Chisora in that he'll never fight for a world title.

I think it's just his lifestyle/drive to keep his weight down that is lacking and it's always been that way, so if he's going to improve it will likely be gradual. I think being with the Reynosos will help because he's one of their top guys but the Reynosos seem to have a decent amount of fighters now, I wonder if they are spread too thin.

Makes sense about the guy's opinion on Saunders. That's another issue, Saunders can't take breaks versus Canelo and throughout his career that's been an issue. I wish we got Saunders versus Ryder or Saunders versus Andrade, both of those would be more competitive but I can't complain about Canelo vs. Saunders.

Champion97's picture

I'll admit I don't know exactly what the standard ring size is, but I don't see any reason to think there is a problem with the ring size, some people believed Saunders's team when they said they would pull out, but I didn't at all. I agree, Trout did well mentally to stick to his plan, one of the judges hadn't given him a round after 8, which was ridiculous, he knew he wasn't getting a fair shake. I think Trout was underrated, I think Cotto improved technically with Roach, and net, was a tougher opponent against Canelo, but it was still a great performance from Trout, I thought Canelo vs Trout was very close, and Trout did great against Charlo and Hurd.

He's already headlined 5 PPVs, has the Povetkin win, Hearn can put him in a big fight without him having to take any more risks, I think that's his plan, not to fight top 10 heavyweights until after he's fought Joshua or Fury, win or lose. So am I now, I've had enough of Whyte, I couldn't eat for a while after the disgusting thing he said after the Povetkin, now he's saying Saunders beats Canelo without backing it up, says Chisora got robbed, we disagree on trash talk when it comes to scheduled fights and potential opponents, but I think we can agree there's no need for trash talk about a fighter you're not considering fighting. I don't think that will happen, Chisora has never been in the position he's in, Takam is Chisora's only win on the same level as Whyte's top 5 wins, losing to Povetkin and winning the rematch is obvious not more impressive than if he'd beaten him the first time, but it was good for his marketability. I don't think Whyte will get a shot at the Joshua vs Fury winner, and in the mean time, he'll stall against the likes of Arreola and Bryan.

I don't see the Reynosos putting up with that, I think they will keep him in the gym. Gyms like Robert Garcia's gym and I'm assuming the Reynosos gym, don't just train and let the fighters do god knows what between sessions, they are good at keeping the fighters in the gym and living the life, keep them motivated not to slack with the diet when they're resting, keep boxing in their mind. I don't think they would let that happen, I think they're too disciplined, I think it's more likely fighters wouldn't be able to hire them because they're too busy, but I suppose McLellan stopped training with Steward because he had too many fighters, and that's when he went to Johnson, who we know wasn't a good trainer.

I agree on that, Canelo vs Saunders isn't the most interesting fight, but it's worth watching.

TBH I'm at the point where I think 95% of these guys are juicing, just to varying degrees.

Gold's picture

I'm sure many are, but there are different levels and Beterbiev looks like he's been working out with Holyfield and RJJ

Ha definitely. He looks cut from granite, he is definitely on a pretty strong cocktail.